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WISC
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:18 am 
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First I want to say I am no expert but have had a few conversations with the local FSDO about airworthiness certificates.
I have looked at a few airplanes lately some with different engines installed since the original airworthiness certificate was issued. I think it is important to remember that once a major modification has been made there has to be a new AW certificate application made and issued. There are some differences if the aircraft was registered prior to 2003 but a flight test still must be done and logged. There are cases where this has not been done and that airplane is not legal to fly and you are responsible for the airplane if you purchase such an aircraft. I have also noticed that people don’t realize the original operating limitations are part of the AW certificate though it is stated on the certificate. You need those limitations if you are going to purchase the airplane because you have no idea what may be listed.
I pass this along to hopefully help people as they look at aircraft. If I am incorrect I am standing by to be educated.


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leewwalton
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:47 am 
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Is a new "Airworthiness Cert" required? I always understood that the FSDO needed to be notified of a "major change" which may result in a new test area/test period (5 hrs or more) but the way I understand it the AW cert remains.

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WISC
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Mr. Walton
It depends on the year the operating limitations were issued.

Earlier limitations stated a new certificate application had to be submitted; verbage changed around 1999 that stated the 5 hour test phase still had to be done but a logbook entry would suffice for legality.

FSDO guy emphasized one definitely needs to look at the operation limitations because the examinar could write some pretty non standard items on the list. He gave me some very unusual examples.


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leewwalton
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:21 pm 
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That make sense ... the airplanes I'm involved with were definitely made before 1999.

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Lee Walton
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mattst18
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Hi Lee,

WISC is saying that the planes built before 1999 needs to have new AW Certs.

I have no experience just reading the posts.

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leewwalton
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:31 pm 
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Thanks Matt, see that now ... long ago we used to have to reapply for a new AW cert every year ... imagine that!

I'm pretty sure that a major change does not require a new AW cert anymore regardless of the age of the aircraft. It all depends on the Op limitations I've seen some that specifically state that any major repair and or alteration requires contacting the FSDO others that make no such statement. Regardless it's probably safest to contact them.

That being said ... I've re-engined one 0-320 to 0-360 and rebuilt another 2 from the ground up, the FSDO never heard from me. :O!

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mattst18
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Wow that would be a pain!!!!

It does sound like it all depends on what the OP Limits state.

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Lou
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:32 pm 
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[That being said ... I've re-engined one 0-320 to 0-360 and rebuilt another 2 from the ground up, the FSDO never heard from me. :O!]
If it's not on paper, it didn't happen.

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leewwalton
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Wise words Brent!

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Lee Walton
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dan
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:13 pm 
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A have some of that paper, but it's on a roll in the other room.........Dan


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Rich Brazell
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:13 pm 
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And a long roll it is Dan ! ??? I had a saying in the Navy..."Log what you want , Log what you need !" BOOM !

I base this on my experience with the SAN FSDO with regard to my Repairman's Certificate . I kept 20 years of documents, photos and records and only needed my ATP license , photo ID to get the repairman's certificate They did not even look at all the CRAP I had kept for 20+ years ! POOP BOOM !

RB O:-)


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dan
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:06 am 
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I did the same thing, Photo documentation, all the receipts and such and had it all compiled for inspection right along with the plane. I will have to say the guy that did the inspection was a good guy, he inspected the plane in my drive way and it took all of 15 minutes, he didn't even look at the pics or any of that stuff, signed everything off and then we conversated for bout an hour. Dan


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Rich Brazell
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Yep ! I had the same 15 minute inspection in my driveway . I had the hinged cowling open for the engine inspection . He looked in the cockpit and did a quick walk around . Had me start the engine and then we signed all the appropriate paper work . I had all the logs, photos , etc. on the workbench , but he did not look at any of it . He was a designate DAR . Nice guy . $450.00 later I had the AW cert. and all the necessary stuff to go the FSDO for the Repairman's cert. Not a bad days pay ! I think he had specific areas he wanted to look at (engine controls properly secured and with the proper washers on the end fittings) you probably had your stuff in one bag !" Cockpit nice and neat with a well thought out panel . Exterior clean and polished . BOOM !

RB O:-)

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James Grahn
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:07 pm 
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The ops limits is a standard form letter that they delete un-needed paragraphs from. It's the same letter for all experimentals. That form letter has changed over the years. The last one was written in 2005. Some where before that, they stopped requiring a new inspection for major changes. Now the standard paragraph says that the owner needs to make a logbook entry and put the aircraft back into phase one (with all it's limitations) for a minimum of five hours. After that hours/testing has been accomplished, the owner is then allowed to write a logbook entry stating that fact and put his/her airplane back into phase two. It's is valuable enough of a paragraph that I would recommend getting new ops limits to fall under these rules.
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Rich Brazell
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:51 pm 
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With regard to Government regulations and the FSDO I equate it to the ACA and someone in Government that said " We have to pass to know what is in it ! " When I asked my DAR after my 40 hours of flight testing did I have to go the FSDO to get the flight testing signed off...he said no ? Just make a log book entry that you flew off the hours ? I really know how many hours are in the log book and "I passed it !" :) I plan to run for Congress in the next election ! ;) BATA BING, BATA BOOM !

RB O:-)

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