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Glass Panels
http://thorp18.com/thorpforum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6285		 Page 4 of 4
Author:  leewwalton [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
What are the actual requirements for ifr flight? Does the FAA require steam gauges?
Author:  dan [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
not an expert in That Relm Lee, but I believe a certified Rig has to have TSOd Instruments. They put the Glass in a lot of new ships now, but the Steam stuff also seems to be included along with the new Glass stuff at least like Rich says an ALT and a Speed indicator. That is done at this point in time for a good reason I would imagine. Again, not an expert here, If I have misspoken someone correct me please.......Dan
Author:  James Grahn [ Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
Nope. Check out 91.205 for VFR and IFR equipment requirements.
Cubes
Author:  leewwalton [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
OK here it is FAR 91.205 (d)(e) ... no steam gauges required. In my opinion a peanut style gyro would be a necessity, don't so much care about the airspeed and altimeter, just something to keep the wings level in the soup. For that matter the iPhone has a pretty decent internal gyro that would do the trick.

(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:

(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in Sec. 121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of
Author:  James Grahn [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
I like the new Dynon pocket EFIS. The only thing I was looking at, is that it is track only. As a backup, it should be ok, but my DG just died, so I was going to replace the DG with the Dynon. I guess that won't work.
Cubes
Author:  jrevens [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
SHIPCHIEF wrote:
Dan pointed out that Steam Gauges are going "the way of the Dodo" and I think that is correct.
The manufacturing and calibrating of those mechanical gauges is expensive compared to the mini computer with sensor. Think of the finely crafted Swiss watch, which was replaced by the cheap stylish digital Swatch.
So I think individual gauges will be replaced with modern mini computer gauges, which have already entered the market. consider MGL who made a cheap series of gauges in black & white, for ultra lites before moving up to the exotic offerings we see today. Also Aerospace Logic makes single fuel, EGT , and CHT gauges for up to 5 fuel tanks and how many cylinders do you want this thing to read?
These modern individual gauges will replace the spinning, grinding, leaking, old gauges surrounding the main EFIS unit, one- by - one as they fail.


The watch comment is interesting... I guess if a person wears a cheap digital watch they may not fully appreciate why someone would pay a lot more for a finely-crafted automatic Swiss timepiece, which are still considered to be the most desireable and dependable watches by many people. And after all the years since the introduction of the digital watch, mechanical self-winding watches are still made in great numbers and have even gained in popularity in recent years. It's kind of nice to have at least one device that doesn't require batteries... that can be repaired, and is not just thrown away when it dies. I think it's a little like that with some of us who still (gasp!) prefer "steam gauges". I do like the look of individual round instruments, while still fully appreciating the advances in modern avionics. The beautiful set of VFR gauges I'm putting in my new project actually cost less than doing "glass", albeit with much less ultimate capability (but truly more than I need). Also, as I get older, the actual "art" of flying has become more important to me than all the new-fangled whistles & bells. And in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm a guy who has built all his own computers for the last 25 years, designing electronic circuits was a hobby of mine, and I'm an engineer by education. I love new technology, but even if they're digital and contain no moving parts I prefer the look of individual instruments. Esthetically, I'm just an old-fashioned guy when it comes to instrument panels... and watches.
Author:  SHIPCHIEF [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
Yes John;
I really enjoy antique machinery, especially the good stuff that has been in service forever and still works like it's supposed to.
I have a working Stuart Turner 5A steam engine that I demonstrate to my employees periodically :D Just to let them have a hint of engineering past.
T-18s are a funny bit of the past. They update well and are adaptive to new technology while retaining a fair measure of the olde.
I spent the week end with my son Peter working on the battery box on his RV-4. The 'new' Odyssey PC680 style battery is lighter Weight 15#) & smaller than the original 'aircraft' type 35 battery (27#), and is sealed. It is especially lighter now that a battery box is no longer needed.
I think I would like to get rid of the vacuum system, which is ahead of the wing spar, and also get rid of the battery & box behind the baggage bulkhead.
I would like the PC680 & contactor under the right seat. No fiberglass box & drain tube, less battery wire. Net savings, about 23 pounds?
I do like the analog Directional Gyro, which currently has no equivalent in modern single gauges.... and electric DG's are very expensive.
Hmmmm.
Author:  Rich Brazell [ Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
I will never out smart the FAA when it comes to the regs. with what is required and not required in the aircraft . You can read between the reg lines and the FAA will read between those lines ! :o Why do some A/C with the EFIS have Standby Gauges ? I guess I may be wrong that the FAA requires them . Maybe Company policy/insurance requirements say that they have/need them ? I just think it is the prudent, common sense thing to do if you install an EFIS only panel in your aircraft is that you have some sort of non-battery back up to land the aircraft. Every online site that I have looked at over the years that build panels with an EFIS have standby gauges ? I know the reliability of todays electronics is very good but I prefer to error on the side of caution and keep my eye on the dial ! Nuff from me on standby Gizmos ! O0

RB
Author:  Bill Williams [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
The manufacturers are telling you the light bulb can burn out at any time. Even with stream gauges we have redundance.
Author:  leewwalton [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
As I mentioned above, I think a backup gyro is a good idea for piece of mind ... And safety, not really thinking backup pitot/static are necessary but that's just me.

Also keep in mind that the EFIS we are dealing with nowadays are not a "bulb" but in rather an evolution of an LCD screen. The same technology that's been around since the late 70's an used to display just about everything we view video on now, iPhones, computer monitors, laptops, tvs, industrial tablets, cash registers etc. So, at some point were going to have to put our faith in these things. You can certainly make the argument that a carbon/ plastic pump pulling air through a glorified "top" seems a bit more hair raising than the electronic stuff they're selling now. Personally I'm more worried about the software driving it than the hardware.

I have and always have been a steam gauge guy but am going to take the plunge this time ... we'll see what I think in a year.
Author:  Bill Williams [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
My comment about bulbs was to be taken loosely, I know that the bulb was replaced by CRT, LCD, LED, OLED, PLASMA and what ever they can up up with to display a pixel. The bulb means everything from a power supply to the software, there's a lot in between, My steam gauges has one hose to it
Author:  leewwalton [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
In reality I did not honestly believe that you (Bill) thought there was a "bulb" ala CRT in the panel but was simply stating that the display technology is pretty rock solid at this point. As I said, I'm more worried about the software than the hardware ... as someone in that industry ... that scares me a tad.

Oh and by the way .. last I checked your one and only ADI was electric ... :O
Author:  smokyray [ Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Glass Panels
Awesome David, I purchased Enigma numero uno for my RVX. Six years later it's still working great! Sim card updates and user designed pages are something the competitors are only now investigating.

You will love it...

V/R
Smokey
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